Worship Culture
This Sunday, Jerry Neill and I are beginning a new class at church called, Worship Culture. This is not a study on the influences of American culture on our worship, or vice versa. Instead we are going to look at the actual culture of our worship. What types of symbols, deep grammar, rhythms, and rituals make up our gathering times? What purposes to our gatherings serve? Through dialogue, liturgy development exercises, refocusing on worship elements, Scripture, and the Spirit's leading of our communal discernment process, we hope to more fully develop a healthy theology of worship for our congregation. If you're in the Jackson area, we'd love to have you each Sunday morning at 9:30. Bring your perspectives and God-hungry heart to the discussion!
Here's a short video we showed last Sunday to help intrigue some folks.
Labels: church, worship, worship culture
posted by Eric Livingston at
9/11/2008
9 Comments:
Kathryn Lewis said...
OK this has nothing to do with your entry but I wanted to ask you a question... do you think we will ever see women worship leaders in our time? Just curious with you being one and all... a worship leader - not a woman! Hope you're doing well
10:59 PM
Blogger Eric Livingston said...
Hey Kathryn. In our small (restoration) movement women worship leaders are a rarity (unless you count praise team singers and women among congregations who best model worshipful hearts). In the greater scope of the church, they are a bit more common. I hope churches of christ, and the church at large move to a place where women can have a more involved role in worship, to include leading worship. It's unfortunate that we look to our women to take the lead in a behind-the-scenes capacity in so many of our formal church ministries and reserve Sunday mornings for men only. I hope we can shape our faiths and our worship to be more inline with our culture. Our next president may help our culture deal with women's place in culture.
Frankly this shift will just take time, but I hope that Jaylie grows up with less baggage about this issue than I have.
Google Darlene Zschech.
4:05 PM
Anonymous Kathryn said...
Thanks! I've been struggling with this for the past 6-8 months so just thought I'd get our input. I'm so blessed to even be part of the WSM and I'm glad I can be used in this way. Thank you for getting it started! God has certainly given me the love and passion for music and teaching so I want to use it in any way I can =)
1:07 PM
Blogger Eric Livingston said...
Are you directing the youth choirs for LTC?
9:17 PM
Blogger dee said...
Clarify, are you saying we should have women worship leaders, women preachers?
...and, does this make women weak because we do not lead a sermon, in your opinion?
Dee,
Thanks for following the blog so closely to pair up those two entries that cross reference Mrs. Zschech.
I don't think there's anything wrong with women worship leaders or women preachers. This seems to be in line with Biblical principles and early church practices...in my opinion. Obviously there is some debate about the issue.
I don't think not having women worship leaders/preachers makes them weak. I do think there is a danger that men can become domineering and oppressive, though, which is obviously inconsistent with Scripture.
What are your thoughts on the issue? Do you have a Restoration Movement background? If not, what is your background?
Obviously there is some debate about the issue.....
My background: Christian, feminist, not necessarily "our cultures" definition of a Christian feminist. Also, an ex-abused wife.
So I know that men can be domineering and oppressive. But I also know they (abusive, oppressive husband's) are not following God's commands and their prayers are not heard.
Taking this further to male leaders, what does the danger that men can be domineering and oppressive have to do with women preachers? A Christian man knows this behavior is wrong. God spelled out the law of how we should treat each other with more respect than our own selves, to put other's feelings over our own - no room for abuse of these scriptures.
Why can't we just follow the bible without adding to or taking away, and not what our "culture" dictates? Where are these magical scriptures the "Christian feminists" are referring to regarding women preachers? Don't point out Miriam to me, Miriam was under the old law, not the new.
Please anyone reading this, know that I am not for women being oppressed, but I am for taking the bible for my guidance.
My God is a male figure, he refers to himself as such, but he is someone who lifts up everyone and loves everyone more than himself. He made Adam, he made Eve from Adam's SIDE, not foot, not head, but side, equal importance. But, who did he make head of the household? Who, in a marriage, did he give the final say to? Of course, God told the man to treat the woman BETTER than himself, and that is where our "culture" sometimes goes awry and we get the dominance and oppression.
I am more thankful after this conversation for the women leaders in my life than ever now. AND, I am praying and speaking to a few of them while I am writing to you for my attitude and that I will study and always be open to the fact that my thoughts and opinion be in line with God's will and that I will not be closed minded, but prayerful and ever searching. So, I do not mind the conversation, even if I was taking issue at first. But, like many Christians, the thought of taking away from or adding to the scriptures is scary to me, and I am not accepting of women preaching to congregations of people. But that just does not have anything to do with men being oppressive or domineering.
God put something on men that he did not put on women...He told you, your prayers would not be heard if you did not love, respect and honor your wife above yourself....He did not tell Dixie this as a direct command...
PS - I do see the respect, honor and pure devotion you have for your wife and family and it is truly a blessing and an example for many. You certainly have a beautiful family.
Dee
Kudos to Darlene Zschech on her beautiful lyrics and music, but she goes to a church that does not understand what the bible says about speaking in tongues.
From Hillsong Church mission statement: "We believe that in order to live the holy and fruitful lives that God intends for us, we need to be baptized in water and be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enables us to use spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues."
Hillsong has a beautiful mission statement except for that line "including speaking in tongues"
Is ALMOST following God's word going to get us to heaven? I want to be SAFE with God, not venture from what is clearly stated in His Words. Of course, our "culture" would say SAFE is not good enough, I want this and I want that, or my personal favorite - THAT'S NOT FAIR.
You know, being a Christian means following God's word, not what every doctrine that makes you "feel good" suggests.
Dee,
Thanks for your openness and gentle spirit - this is a testimony to your value of unity in Christ's body even in the face of doctrinal disagreements.
I can tell that we don't have the same views on how doctrines affect our faith or our salvation. So acknowledging that differing starting point, I'll quickly respond.
Unfortunately I can't write enough in this space to give you all my opinions on these matters. Let me quickly say this - the speaking in tongues thing is of negligible concern to me - that's something I don't practice or see value in, but let's spend our time in the weightier matters: justice, mercy, and faithfulness.
As for the women's role issue, if you truly are wrestling with this issue (as your comments seem to indicate) then I probably can't present the case in a way you haven't already heard.
1. Putting more emphasis on the behaviors and ministries in which we see women involved throughout the NT, and 2. reading Acts 2:14-21 and Galatians 3:28-29 probably in a broader scope than you do, and 3. interpreting 1 Corinthians 14.34 as a Pauline directive to a specific context, and after much study of 1 Timothy 2.11-15, and 4. after considering the grand themes of the Biblical narrative and relying on our own church's community discernment involving the Spirit, I have concluded that allowing women to speak is completely permissive.
In fact my reading of the Creation narrative encourages equality between the sexes. Eve was created as a counterpart or compliment to Man. Their love and submission to one another reigns supreme so that neither one has power over the other. Their love gives them both power under each other.
One last comment - God describes himself as Mother as well. Isa 49 and 66 are a couple of examples. God is neither male nor female. He is other and holy. Yet God's character is both strong and nurturing, He is both the provider and gentle mercy giver.
As a man, when I hear a woman pray or read scripture, I experience a totally different side of God. One that we have neglected for too long in our corporate worship gatherings.
Now, I know that doesn't satisfy you. Frankly it doesn't me either. I might be able to communicate better via email or phone. Feel free to contact me if you like. Do I know you? If I knew more about your background, we might be able to communicate a little better.
Again thanks for the spirit in which you bring these questions and comments. We agree on the doctrine of unity in Christ alone!
It's hard to ask this without sounding rude, but, what do you like about the Church of Christ? Couldn't you find a church that teaches baptism for remission of sins and receiving of Holy Spirit but anything else goes, any day of the week? Unapologetically, all the other stuff that you shrug off as trivial, is important; changing God's word to suit what someone wants to feel good about is adding to the Bible. Why would God say to watch for false teachers? Won't they be judged more harshly than anyone else?
Dee,
I'll suspend this conversation here. Feel free to email me, but I doubt we'll find agreement. We have differing hermeneutics and understanding of how Scripture works, so we may just have to agree to disagree.
Shalom,
Eric
P.S. What I like about the Restoration Movement churches is that it is a movement to restore unity to the Bride of Christ even in this very kind of discussion. In matters of faith in Christ, we have unity; in matters of opinion, we offer liberty; and in all things we love.
Dee,
One other note: I've got a great article by Randy Harris on unity in the face of doctrinal disagreement. Drop me an email and I'll send it your way.
Eric
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